low attendance

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

Hey fellow SeaJUG folks,

We've had mixed attendance at some of the talks lately. Is it the topics?
venue? some other reason?

thanks,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

[Eric Jain [e-mail] [seajug]]

We've had mixed attendance at some of the talks lately. Is it the topics? venue? some other reason?

Must be the 90s web design on seajug.org :-)
--
Eric Jain
Got data? Get answers at zenobase.com.


------------------------------------
Posted by: Eric Jain <eric.jain-***@public.gmane.org>
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[Eric Jain [e-mail] [seajug]]

Post by Eric Jain eric.jain-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Must be the 90s web design on seajug.org :-)

Also:

I don't come to these meetings to learn how x works, but to hear about
(and question!) other people's experiences with x.

So I'm more likely to not want to miss out on a meeting if it consists
of several short "show and tell" talks (max 15min each + discussion).

+ 1 for the suggestion to use meetup.com

--
Eric Jain
Got data? Get answers at zenobase.com.


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[Scott Shipp [e-mail] [seajug]]

As someone who recently joined the mailing list but has never attended a talk, the main reason is that I am going to night classes for my MSE. I usually get off after a day of work slinging code and then rush to class all evening on the day that these are scheduled. I have to choose to attend class or a SeaJUG meeting. That may change this summer since I won't have any classes. A second reason is the topics. Some of them are interesting (like the machine learning) but not practically relevant to me at the time. I would have liked to go to February's meeting with Ted Neward, though.
Scott

To: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
From: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 12:31:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance

Post by Eric Jain eric.jain-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Must be the 90s web design on seajug.org :-)

Also:



I don't come to these meetings to learn how x works, but to hear about

(and question!) other people's experiences with x.



So I'm more likely to not want to miss out on a meeting if it consists

of several short "show and tell" talks (max 15min each + discussion).



+ 1 for the suggestion to use meetup.com



--

Eric Jain

Got data? Get answers at zenobase.com.

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

welcome to the group :)

hopefully you can make it to one of the meetings soon.
Ted's talk is available online if you haven't seen it already (look under
past meetings on seajug.org):
http://vimeo.com/87387457

cheers,
Nimret

Post by Scott Shipp scottashipp-1ViLX0X+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
As someone who recently joined the mailing list but has never attended a
talk, the main reason is that I am going to night classes for my MSE. I
usually get off after a day of work slinging code and then rush to class
all evening on the day that these are scheduled. I have to choose to attend
class or a SeaJUG meeting. That may change this summer since I won't have
any classes. A second reason is the topics. Some of them are interesting
(like the machine learning) but not practically relevant to me at the time.
I would have liked to go to February's meeting with Ted Neward, though.
Scott

[Mitch Gitman [e-mail] [seajug]]

I think there've been some great topics lately. And I don't think you can
do better than the Disney location, although I could be a minority on that,
and I can understand why some folks would want to mix it up sometimes with
an Eastside location.

For me, the one discouragement is that, in recent times, so many of these
presentations get hijacked into a game of "stump the speaker" where there's
this onslaught of questions that seem motivated less by a genuine interest
in the technologies than by a desire to get into an intellectual joust. As
a Hazelcast user, I was really looking forward to the April talk by the
creator of Hazelcast--and I had my own questions about whether or not I was
applying it the right way--and I came away from that meeting feeling like
the whole affair had been filibustered out of much of its value.

Now, that's just my own frustration, and I don't necessarily believe that's
the main reason for the dropoff. Then again, it could tie into what I
believe is one real issue. The other tech group I'm a regular at is the
Seattle Scalability Meetup, and I'm always amazed at how few people I
recognize there. But at SeaJUG--I feel I recognize most of the folks there.
There hasn't been a lot of fresh blood injected into the group lately.

That could just as well be a lack of promotion, though, as an in-grown
culture. So many of these groups get listed on meetup.com.

It may also be that the recent addition of the Scala meetup has peeled away
some numbers.

Nimret, thanks as always for your dedication and diligence.

Post by Nimret Sandhu nimret-rf+Eeaps6PzQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hey fellow SeaJUG folks,
We've had mixed attendance at some of the talks lately. Is it the topics?
venue? some other reason?
thanks,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

[Neel Kumar [e-mail] [seajug]]

You don't rotate down to SF Bay Area... :)

I miss your meetings.

Post by Mitch Gitman mgitman-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
I think there've been some great topics lately. And I don't think you can
do better than the Disney location, although I could be a minority on that,
and I can understand why some folks would want to mix it up sometimes with
an Eastside location.
For me, the one discouragement is that, in recent times, so many of these
presentations get hijacked into a game of "stump the speaker" where there's
this onslaught of questions that seem motivated less by a genuine interest
in the technologies than by a desire to get into an intellectual joust. As
a Hazelcast user, I was really looking forward to the April talk by the
creator of Hazelcast--and I had my own questions about whether or not I was
applying it the right way--and I came away from that meeting feeling like
the whole affair had been filibustered out of much of its value.
Now, that's just my own frustration, and I don't necessarily believe
that's the main reason for the dropoff. Then again, it could tie into what
I believe is one real issue. The other tech group I'm a regular at is the
Seattle Scalability Meetup, and I'm always amazed at how few people I
recognize there. But at SeaJUG--I feel I recognize most of the folks there.
There hasn't been a lot of fresh blood injected into the group lately.
That could just as well be a lack of promotion, though, as an in-grown
culture. So many of these groups get listed on meetup.com.
It may also be that the recent addition of the Scala meetup has peeled
away some numbers.
Nimret, thanks as always for your dedication and diligence.

Post by Nimret Sandhu nimret-rf+Eeaps6PzQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hey fellow SeaJUG folks,
We've had mixed attendance at some of the talks lately. Is it the topics?
venue? some other reason?
thanks,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

[Jason Osgood [e-mail] [seajug]]

Hi Mitch.

...so many of these presentations get hijacked into a game of "stump the speaker”… I was really looking forward to the April talk by the creator of Hazelcast … and I came away from that meeting feeling like the whole affair had been filibustered out of much of its value.

Thank you. I agree. I already complain too much, so I’m glad you spoke up.

Mea culpa: I realized the hazing wasn’t gender based. I apologize to everyone for thinking you’re all a bunch of misogynists.

—

Aside:

As a presenter, looking out at people asleep or lost in their laptops is a bit discouraging. I felt bad for all the times I’ve busily worked on my laptop during a presentation. I don’t know if there’s a fix to this. The lecture format may simply be dead.

Lectures Aren't Just Boring, They're Ineffective, Too, Study Finds
http://news.sciencemag.org/education/2014/05/lectures-arent-just-boring-theyre-ineffective-too-study-finds

Maybe a new format is needed. Share the source, share my screen, split into groups 1-3 people, everyone works at their own pace. Chop the “lesson” into 20 minute blocks. Have people help each other.

Not that it showed, but I spent ~6 hours on my fado presentation. An interactive demo (tutorial) would take a great deal more prep.

An early format for the Wing Ding studying GoF was in the

- group sync
- split up for first design pattern
- group sync for recap
- split up for second design pattern
- group sync for recap

Worked very well.

—

The other tech group I'm a regular at is the Seattle Scalability Meetup, and I'm always amazed at how few people I recognize there. … It may also be that the recent addition of the Scala meetup has peeled away some numbers.

Bifurcation is a natural law.

So many of these groups get listed on meetup.com.

Good idea.

Nimret, thanks as always for your dedication and diligence.

Word.


Cheers, Jason



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[Konstantin Ignatyev [e-mail] [seajug]]

My frustration with presentations in general is that they do not add
much value over an introductory article to a technology. I want to
know the juicier parts: where technology breaks and should not be
applied, why this technology vs. competing or established one. So I
tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have goal
to 'stump the speaker'. IMO, if speaker is not ready to speak openly
about challenges and murky parts of a technology, I am not interested
- it is a marketing talk.

I do not have much free time and do not want to be lured into trying
something only to discover later that it does not work in some
critical cases for me. Technology comes to the plateau of productivity
so there is not that much new and exciting (in Java world anyway) so I
am looking for presentations with rough outline like this:

1. I needed (wanted) to do X
2. I have tried products technologies: A, B, and C
3. Out of them technology __ was OK but ...< narrative what is wrong
with the tech> and I was unable to work with vendor or team to fix my
pain points because of ....
4. So I wrote (discovered) product D, and it addresses such and such
use cases better than ..... because it ....

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Mitch.

...so many of these presentations get hijacked into a game of "stump the speaker”… I was really looking forward to the April talk by the creator of Hazelcast … and I came away from that meeting feeling like the whole affair had been filibustered out of much of its value.

Thank you. I agree. I already complain too much, so I’m glad you spoke up.
Mea culpa: I realized the hazing wasn’t gender based. I apologize to everyone for thinking you’re all a bunch of misogynists.
—

--
Konstantin Ignatyev

PS: If this is a typical day on planet Earth, humans will add fifteen
million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons
of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase
their population by 263,000

Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement
Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New
York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)


------------------------------------
Posted by: Konstantin Ignatyev <kgignatyev-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

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[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

in the interest of expediting a talk I'll try to stick with a 3 question
max on a topic/slide or within 15 mins and then ask folks to take up the
topic over beers afterwards. Hopefully that ought to provide a nice
compromise between both points of view.

cheers,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

Post by Konstantin Ignatyev kgignatyev-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
My frustration with presentations in general is that they do not add
much value over an introductory article to a technology. I want to
know the juicier parts: where technology breaks and should not be
applied, why this technology vs. competing or established one. So I
tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have goal
to 'stump the speaker'. IMO, if speaker is not ready to speak openly
about challenges and murky parts of a technology, I am not interested
- it is a marketing talk.
I do not have much free time and do not want to be lured into trying
something only to discover later that it does not work in some
critical cases for me. Technology comes to the plateau of productivity
so there is not that much new and exciting (in Java world anyway) so I
1. I needed (wanted) to do X
2. I have tried products technologies: A, B, and C
3. Out of them technology __ was OK but ...< narrative what is wrong
with the tech> and I was unable to work with vendor or team to fix my
pain points because of ....
4. So I wrote (discovered) product D, and it addresses such and such
use cases better than ..... because it ....

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Mitch.

...so many of these presentations get hijacked into a game of "stump

the speaker”
 I was really looking forward to the April talk by the creator
of Hazelcast 
 and I came away from that meeting feeling like the whole
affair had been filibustered out of much of its value.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Thank you. I agree. I already complain too much, so I’m glad you spoke

up.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Mea culpa: I realized the hazing wasn’t gender based. I apologize to

everyone for thinking you’re all a bunch of misogynists.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
—

[Jason Osgood [e-mail] [seajug]]

Hi Konstantin.

So I tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have goal
to 'stump the speaker’.

I love you like a brother. So please know my intent is to be constructive. Three things.

#1 It’s wicked hard to successfully target an audience.

#2 Please give the presenter a chance.

Once they cover the basics, they might cover your concerns. I know what you mean about wasting time listening to marketing decks; I walked out on the Azure presentation

#3 I’m trying to think of a strategy to increase engage around and during a presentation.

I love Slashdot’s Q&A format. I propose attendees post their questions to this list. If received beforehand, our Chair can make sure the presenter covers it. Perhaps by forwarding them, so the presenter can prepare. Afterwards, we can invite the presenter to join the list (temporarily) for the more open ended topics.

Doing a structured Q&A will increase the value of both our meetings and this listserv.


Cheers, Jason

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[Konstantin Ignatyev [e-mail] [seajug]]

No worry Jason ;)

There are different approaches to presentations and meetings. When I
am presenting I love questions and detours as they show that someone
is interested in the topic and allow tailoring content. It is tough
because it requires presenter to manage time and audience.

That is why we need moderator to keep me it check :), or a note in the
meeting announcement if presenter likes Q&A style or prefers lecture
style. I will skip lecture style presentations and we all will be
happy ;)

Konstantin

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Konstantin.

So I tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have goal
to 'stump the speaker’.

I love you like a brother. So please know my intent is to be constructive. Three things.
#1 It’s wicked hard to successfully target an audience.
#2 Please give the presenter a chance.
Once they cover the basics, they might cover your concerns. I know what you mean about wasting time listening to marketing decks; I walked out on the Azure presentation
#3 I’m trying to think of a strategy to increase engage around and during a presentation.
I love Slashdot’s Q&A format. I propose attendees post their questions to this list. If received beforehand, our Chair can make sure the presenter covers it. Perhaps by forwarding them, so the presenter can prepare. Afterwards, we can invite the presenter to join the list (temporarily) for the more open ended topics.
Doing a structured Q&A will increase the value of both our meetings and this listserv.
Cheers, Jason
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

--
Konstantin Ignatyev

PS: If this is a typical day on planet Earth, humans will add fifteen
million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons
of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase
their population by 263,000

Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement
Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New
York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)


------------------------------------
Posted by: Konstantin Ignatyev <kgignatyev-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

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[George Smith [e-mail] [seajug]]

I think Konstantin's suggestion is a good one:

It would be good to know in advance if this the Presentation / Speaker is a:

- Exploratory (Q & A driven), or
- Lecture style.

I like both forms based on my knowledge of a subject:

- Low -> Lecture w/ "some" Q & A at the end.
- High -> Exploratory.

George

Post by Konstantin Ignatyev kgignatyev-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
No worry Jason ;)
There are different approaches to presentations and meetings. When I
am presenting I love questions and detours as they show that someone
is interested in the topic and allow tailoring content. It is tough
because it requires presenter to manage time and audience.
That is why we need moderator to keep me it check :), or a note in the
meeting announcement if presenter likes Q&A style or prefers lecture
style. I will skip lecture style presentations and we all will be
happy ;)
Konstantin

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Konstantin.

So I tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have

goal

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]

to 'stump the speaker’.

I love you like a brother. So please know my intent is to be

constructive. Three things.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
#1 It’s wicked hard to successfully target an audience.
#2 Please give the presenter a chance.
Once they cover the basics, they might cover your concerns. I know what

you mean about wasting time listening to marketing decks; I walked out on
the Azure presentation

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
#3 I’m trying to think of a strategy to increase engage around and

during a presentation.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
I love Slashdot’s Q&A format. I propose attendees post their questions

to this list. If received beforehand, our Chair can make sure the presenter
covers it. Perhaps by forwarding them, so the presenter can prepare.
Afterwards, we can invite the presenter to join the list (temporarily) for
the more open ended topics.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Doing a structured Q&A will increase the value of both our meetings and

this listserv.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Cheers, Jason
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

--
Konstantin Ignatyev
PS: If this is a typical day on planet Earth, humans will add fifteen
million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons
of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase
their population by 263,000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement
Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New
York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)

[dev danke [e-mail] [seajug]]

Pre-posting questions for presenters is a great win-win idea!

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Konstantin.

So I tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have goal
to 'stump the speaker’.

I love you like a brother. So please know my intent is to be constructive. Three things.
#1 It’s wicked hard to successfully target an audience.
#2 Please give the presenter a chance.
Once they cover the basics, they might cover your concerns. I know what you mean about wasting time listening to marketing decks; I walked out on the Azure presentation
#3 I’m trying to think of a strategy to increase engage around and during a presentation.
I love Slashdot’s Q&A format. I propose attendees post their questions to this list. If received beforehand, our Chair can make sure the presenter covers it. Perhaps by forwarding them, so the presenter can prepare. Afterwards, we can invite the presenter to join the list (temporarily) for the more open ended topics.
Doing a structured Q&A will increase the value of both our meetings and this listserv.
Cheers, Jason
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

------------------------------------
Posted by: dev danke <devdanke-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

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[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

+1
please feel free to post questions to the mailing list along with cc'ing
the presenter (I usually cc them on the initial announcements).

cheers,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

Post by dev danke devdanke-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Pre-posting questions for presenters is a great win-win idea!

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Konstantin.

So I tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have

goal

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]

to 'stump the speaker’.

I love you like a brother. So please know my intent is to be

constructive. Three things.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
#1 It’s wicked hard to successfully target an audience.
#2 Please give the presenter a chance.
Once they cover the basics, they might cover your concerns. I know what

you mean about wasting time listening to marketing decks; I walked out on
the Azure presentation

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
#3 I’m trying to think of a strategy to increase engage around and

during a presentation.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
I love Slashdot’s Q&A format. I propose attendees post their questions

to this list. If received beforehand, our Chair can make sure the presenter
covers it. Perhaps by forwarding them, so the presenter can prepare.
Afterwards, we can invite the presenter to join the list (temporarily) for
the more open ended topics.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Doing a structured Q&A will increase the value of both our meetings and

this listserv.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Cheers, Jason
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[jason marshall [e-mail] [seajug]]

I'm very late to this conversation, but I am one of the guilty drop-offs,
and I've already talked to a few of you about my observations, and I think
it's worth repeating them here in the wider forum.

On any given Tuesday I have three other places I could be. Everyone in my
life seems to have decided that Tuesday is the time to do stuff. My
friends, the non-profit I work with, and the Rails group all meet every
Tuesday.

The Rails group has a format that I think works pretty well. So well in
fact that I keep going every few months even though I haven't written any
Rails code for a year. Currently their attendance is about 75% of SeaJUG
at its peak.

They announce their meetings on Meetup, and on Twitter (although they have
a bad habit of posting to twitter the morning of, which could use some
work) The format is not so dissimilar. Like SeaJUG they discuss current
events, have food, and go out for beers afterward. The biggest
differences are:

* Their big meetup is 1st Tuesday of the month (might be easier to figure
out the math)
* They take over the back room at Vivace's every other Tuesday of the month
for a night of hacking and pairing
* the headlining speaker presents for around 60-70 minutes
* 2 or 3 show and tells from the general audience (there is a call for
volunteers for next month at the beginning)
* They have an open and working relationship with some underserved groups
* JSP and JSTL suck balls compared to literally every other templating
language out there right now (except HAML. I hate HAML). No lexical
scoping? It's 2014.

...

Sorry, got off-topic for a second there.



I think having community involvement in the form of short presentations is
a pretty critical factor to their success. These days Rails isn't really
'cool' in comparison to Java, so it's not buzz. But they also reach out
pretty hard. Several of the core members are active contributors to the
Rails toolchain, and they make an effort with both young developers and
female developers - last time I was there they were being visited by dozens
of recent graduates from the Ada Developer Academy program.

Unfortunately to an outsider attending both meetings, we must look like a
bunch of tired, self-absorbed assholes who are only looking out for their
next contract. And that's compared to the Rails guys. NodeJS? I don't
even own the right pants to go to their meetings.

I'm pretty sure we can do better.

-Jason

(Okay, I confess I own one pair, but my shirts are just all wrong.)

Post by Nimret Sandhu nimret-rf+Eeaps6PzQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
+1
please feel free to post questions to the mailing list along with cc'ing
the presenter (I usually cc them on the initial announcements).
cheers,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

Post by dev danke devdanke-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Pre-posting questions for presenters is a great win-win idea!

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Konstantin.

So I tend to ask probing questions and sorry that you think they have

goal

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]

to 'stump the speaker’.

I love you like a brother. So please know my intent is to be

constructive. Three things.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
#1 It’s wicked hard to successfully target an audience.
#2 Please give the presenter a chance.
Once they cover the basics, they might cover your concerns. I know what

you mean about wasting time listening to marketing decks; I walked out on
the Azure presentation

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
#3 I’m trying to think of a strategy to increase engage around and

during a presentation.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
I love Slashdot’s Q&A format. I propose attendees post their questions

to this list. If received beforehand, our Chair can make sure the presenter
covers it. Perhaps by forwarding them, so the presenter can prepare.
Afterwards, we can invite the presenter to join the list (temporarily) for
the more open ended topics.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Doing a structured Q&A will increase the value of both our meetings and

this listserv.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Cheers, Jason
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
On any given Tuesday I have three other places I could be. Everyone in my
life seems to have decided that Tuesday is the time to do stuff. My
friends, the non-profit I work with, and the Rails group all meet every
Tuesday.

the 3rd Tuesday is just there for historical reasons. I'm guessing we're
probably one of the oldest groups around (I started coming to the meetings
circa 1997). I don't mind changing the date but no one else has brought it
up yet.

They announce their meetings on Meetup, and on Twitter (although they have

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
a bad habit of posting to twitter the morning of, which could use some
work) The format is not so dissimilar. Like SeaJUG they discuss current
events, have food, and go out for beers afterward. The biggest

I am going to setup something on meetup + twitter and see if that helps.
Might have to finally setup a twitter account :)

* They take over the back room at Vivace's every other Tuesday of the month

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
for a night of hacking and pairing

I doubt pairing will appeal to our audience. It's been discussed in the
conversation already. The presentation format seems to be ok.

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
* the headlining speaker presents for around 60-70 minutes

I'm going to shoot for hour long presentations also.

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
* 2 or 3 show and tells from the general audience (there is a call for
volunteers for next month at the beginning)

always prefer/interested in talks or show/tells from the community.

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
* They have an open and working relationship with some underserved groups

that's awesome and I'd be happy to oblige if you want to enumerate them.

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
* JSP and JSTL suck balls compared to literally every other templating
language out there right now (except HAML. I hate HAML). No lexical
scoping? It's 2014.

all templating languages (or technology for that matter) have tradeoffs.
I never did JSTL but I wouldn't really use such strong language for JSP.
besides, thick javascript clients (angular, bootstrap, etc) is the new
hotness anyways.

I think having community involvement in the form of short presentations is

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
a pretty critical factor to their success. These days Rails isn't really
'cool' in comparison to Java, so it's not buzz. But they also reach out
pretty hard. Several of the core members are active contributors to the
Rails toolchain, and they make an effort with both young developers and
female developers - last time I was there they were being visited by dozens
of recent graduates from the Ada Developer Academy program.

I'd be delighted to have folks from the community step up to present. In
fact next week's meeting will either be lightning talks or most likely a
presentation from a member. It will be on the eastside though.

Unfortunately to an outsider attending both meetings, we must look like a

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
bunch of tired, self-absorbed assholes who are only looking out for their
next contract. And that's compared to the Rails guys. NodeJS? I don't
even own the right pants to go to their meetings.

any outsiders who have attended seajug recently care to comment? I wouldn't
necessarily agree with the strong wording or the comment there.

I'm pretty sure we can do better.

Post by jason marshall jdmarshall-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
-Jason
(Okay, I confess I own one pair, but my shirts are just all wrong.)

[Mitch Gitman [e-mail] [seajug]]

Jason, I don't have a particular problem with the format. It's a format
that's working for a lot of groups. (That said, I'm not averse to mixing
things up occasionally.)

As for the issue of any individual attendee abusing their privilege to
participate and failing to appreciate that the other attendees cherish
their time just as much as he or she cherishes his or her time--well,
Nimret is the moderator, and I would like to see him be a little less shy
about reining things in, all the while trusting his own judgment.

Even so, as I said, I think the tendency of these meetings to get
randomized is more a symptom than a cause of a bigger problem--a lack of
fresh blood.

P.S. I agree with everything Richard Rodseth says, and I want to echo one
great point he makes. I know that, when I've been pressed for time, the
lack of a talk being recorded has been a "forcing factor" for me to go
there. That's not a reason not to record the talks, but it is a reality.

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Mitch.

...so many of these presentations get hijacked into a game of "stump the

speaker”
 I was really looking forward to the April talk by the creator of
Hazelcast 
 and I came away from that meeting feeling like the whole affair
had been filibustered out of much of its value.
Thank you. I agree. I already complain too much, so I’m glad you spoke up.
Mea culpa: I realized the hazing wasn’t gender based. I apologize to
everyone for thinking you’re all a bunch of misogynists.
—
As a presenter, looking out at people asleep or lost in their laptops is a
bit discouraging. I felt bad for all the times I’ve busily worked on my
laptop during a presentation. I don’t know if there’s a fix to this. The
lecture format may simply be dead.
Lectures Aren't Just Boring, They're Ineffective, Too, Study Finds
http://news.sciencemag.org/education/2014/05/lectures-arent-just-boring-theyre-ineffective-too-study-finds
Maybe a new format is needed. Share the source, share my screen, split
into groups 1-3 people, everyone works at their own pace. Chop the “lesson”
into 20 minute blocks. Have people help each other.
Not that it showed, but I spent ~6 hours on my fado presentation. An
interactive demo (tutorial) would take a great deal more prep.
An early format for the Wing Ding studying GoF was in the
- group sync
- split up for first design pattern
- group sync for recap
- split up for second design pattern
- group sync for recap
Worked very well.
—

The other tech group I'm a regular at is the Seattle Scalability Meetup,

and I'm always amazed at how few people I recognize there. 
 It may also be
that the recent addition of the Scala meetup has peeled away some numbers.
Bifurcation is a natural law.

So many of these groups get listed on meetup.com.

Good idea.

Nimret, thanks as always for your dedication and diligence.

Word.
Cheers, Jason
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Jason Osgood [e-mail] [seajug]]

Hi Mitch.

Nimret is the moderator, and I would like to see him be a little less shy about reining things in

I don’t see that as Nimret’s job. He’s the Chair.

At political meetings we often have a Sargent at Arms, who’s serves as the Bad Cop. Her job is to shush people, herd sidebar conversations out into the hall, and carry out the Chair’s rulings (eg determining the disruptive LaRouchians are out of order).

...cause of a bigger problem--a lack of fresh blood.

I had a similar thought: Us remaining seajug members are quite familiar, and therefore quite comfortable, with each other. Dare I say we’ve become a clique?


Cheers, Jason

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

Post by Mitch Gitman mgitman-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
P.S. I agree with everything Richard Rodseth says, and I want to echo one
great point he makes. I know that, when I've been pressed for time, the
lack of a talk being recorded has been a "forcing factor" for me to go
there. That's not a reason not to record the talks, but it is a reality.

well, the videos are certainly popular. We have 48 videos up so far (I've
been doing this for so long already! I feel old :)
here they are sorted by number of plays:
http://vimeo.com/search/sort:plays/format:thumbnail?q=seajug

cheers,
Nimret

[[e-mail] [seajug]]

My guess would be parking. Past Seattle locations have had easier parking options or validated parking such as when we were at Union Plaza many years ago.<br /><br />The Bellevue locations, in contrast, have offered validated parking.<br /><br />It certainly wouldn't be the lack of food as we're very well taken care of on that front these days.<br /><br />Dan<br /><br />---<br />Daniel Kirkdorffer<br />dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org<br /><br />[Sent from my iPhone]

[[e-mail] [seajug]]

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<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000; font-size:10pt;"><div>As usual, I vote for more east side! </div><div><br></div><div>I was really frustrated a few months ago when I arrived at the Amazon campus in my gas hungry pickup truck (after having negotiated an hour of &nbsp;stop and go traffic on the bridge) for a SEAJUG meeting only to discover I was day early (or a day late -- I don't remember). My fault I know... Neverytheless, I always think twice about crossing the bridges at rush hour in my truck... Someday I'll own a prius and I'll wait in stop and go traffic in that prius instead...</div><div><br></div><div>Since I work a lot of temporary gigs, I'm interested in topics that are going to help me maximize my hourly rate...</div><div><br></div><div>What are the criteria for to
pics that other folks have?</div><div><br></div><div>Siegfried</div><div><br></div><div>P.S. Thanks for your work Nimret...</div><div><br></div>
<blockquote id="replyBlockquote" webmail="1" style="border-left: 2px solid blue; margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px; font-size:10pt; color:black; font-family:verdana;">
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance<br>
From: "Mitch Gitman <a href="mailto:mgitman-***@public.gmane.org">mgitman-***@public.gmane.org</a> [seajug]" &lt;<a href="mailto:seajug-***@public.gmane.org">seajug-***@public.gmane.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Tue, June 03, 2014 5:02 pm<br>

<br></div><div>We've had mixed attendance at some of the talks lately. Is it the topics? venue? some other reason?</div><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div> <div>thanks,</div> <div>-</div>Nimret Sandhu<br><a href="http://www.nimret.org" target="_blank">http://www.nimret.org</a></div></div> </div></div> <div></div> </div> <div style="color:#fff;min-height:0;"></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> <div></div> </div> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;"></div> <style type="text/css">

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[Jason Osgood [e-mail] [seajug]]

Hi Siegfried.

I arrived at the Amazon campus ... for a SEAJUG meeting only to discover I was day early

Yup, I feels ya.

I’ve had to increasingly rely on calendaring. Event / appointment doesn’t exist if its not in my calendar. Below is Nimret’s reply about same.


Cheers, Jason

http://www.seattletechcalendar.com/
or https://www.google.com/calendar/ical/aveu61ive18j03j8gu2623og2k%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
or https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=aveu61ive18j03j8gu2623og2k%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Los_Angeles
cheers,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

[[e-mail] [seajug]]

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<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000; font-size:10pt;"><div>OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last meeting...</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from my 60 hour work week. I apologize...</div><div><br></div><div>But since I am confessing... may I attempt offer some constructive criticism? Ohhh I really don't want to step on any toes!</div><div><br></div><div>Have done lots of presentations in the distant past (never for SEAJUG so far...) I can appreciate the amount of work that goes into a presentation...</div><div><br></div><div>OK, here goes...</div><div><br></div><div>When I have presented to the Boulder CO JUG and the Denver JUG in the distant past, I always used power point slides (or something similar) in the beginning to</div><div><br></div><div>(1) Define my terms</div><div>(2) Define who would be interested and why</div><div>(3) Discuss why this particular audience might be interested...</div><div>(4) Discuss the broad concepts in the recently defined terms..</div><div><br></div><div>Now a lot of people don't like power point style presentations but I (as a member of the audience) do so I can see and hear these preliminary discussions. Demonstrations are great but if I don't understand the terms (because they rushed these preliminary discussions), demonstrations are not helpful.</div><div><br></div><div>As an experienced presenter of 40 hour (one week) presentations, this fact can be extremely frustrating... I have executed amazing live demonstrations in the classroom that required extensive preparations and they were only met with yawns...</div><div><br></div><div>My frustration with the Cassandra topic was that I could not figure out (1) could I ever try this out on my personal notebook computer and (2) would I ever encounter this (Cassandra) in the work place where I might be working with it and (3) how to ask questions so I could understand better.</div><div><br></div><div>Let me elaborate a bit more on that last point:</div><div><br></div><div>I found the detailed diagram for the Cassandra presentation difficult to understand because it was overwhelming to me (partially because it was not displayed very long and I did not have a hard copy). This made it very hard to ask questions. I did not understand all the symbols and the relationships between the symbols...</div><div><br></div><div>There have been other presentations where I had difficulty understanding the terms because the speaker jumped into a complex diagram or demonstration before I understood the terms and concepts or why I should be interested...</div><div><br></div><div>Now let me discuss a different scenario:</div><div><br></div><div>I understand why Venkat was very terse in his Java 8 SEAJUG presentation: he was trying to sell tickets to No Fluff Just Stuff... However I was really frustrated because he had a lot of good information and he spoke much faster than I could take notes! I'm very happy to be attending WingDings on Java 8 where we are going a bit slower! Nevertheless, Venkat's presentation was not very helpful to me. And given the choice between WingDings and spending the money for NoFluff Just Stuff, I prefer Wingdings...</div><div><br></div><div>So I hope I have been helpful... I'm sorry I fell asleep... I would be be discouraged too if someone fell asleep (they have...) during my presentations... I find 60 hour work weeks brutal... It took a lot of determination to even show up at SEAJUG with that kind of work stress....</div><div><br></div><div>I don't want anyone to feel discouraged with my attempts at constructive criticism... I know all too well that presenting a technical topic is hard work -- especially when you are doing it for free...</div><div><br></div><div>Now please: every one remember! We are not paying for these presentations. They are being done as labors of love. Therefor there are no bad presentations at SEAJUG!&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I encouraged all the past and future presenters to keep up the good work... AND IT IS GOOD WORK!&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for your time...</div><div><br></div><div>Siegfried</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
<blockquote id="replyBlockquote" webmail="1" style="border-left: 2px solid blue; margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px; font-size:10pt; color:black; font-family:verdana;">
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance<br>
From: "Jason Osgood <a href="mailto:zappini-***@public.gmane.org">zappini-***@public.gmane.org</a> [seajug]" &lt;<a href="mailto:seajug-***@public.gmane.org">***@yahoogroups.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 5:24 am<br>
To: <a href="mailto:seajug-***@public.gmane.org">seajug-***@public.gmane.org</a><br>
<br>
Hi Mitch.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; ...so many of these presentations get hijacked into a game of "stump the speaker”… I was really looking forward to the April talk by the creator of Hazelcast … and I came away from that meeting feeling like the whole affair had been filibustered out of much of its value.<br>
<br>
Thank you. I agree. I already complain too much, so I’m glad you spoke up.<br>
<br>
Mea culpa: I realized the hazing wasn’t gender based. I apologize to everyone for thinking you’re all a bunch of misogynists.<br>
<br>
—<br>
<br>
Aside: <br>
<br>
As a presenter, looking out at people asleep or lost in their laptops is a bit discouraging. I felt bad for all the times I’ve busily worked on my laptop during a presentation. I don’t know if there’s a fix to this. The lecture format may simply be dead.<br>
<br>
Lectures Aren't Just Boring, They're Ineffective, Too, Study Finds<br>
<a href="http://news.sciencemag.org/education/2014/05/lectures-arent-just-boring-theyre-ineffective-too-study-finds">http://news.sciencemag.org/education/2014/05/lectures-arent-just-boring-theyre-ineffective-too-study-finds</a><br>
<br>
Maybe a new format is needed. Share the source, share my screen, split into groups 1-3 people, everyone works at their own pace. Chop the “lesson” into 20 minute blocks. Have people help each other.<br>
<br>
Not that it showed, but I spent ~6 hours on my fado presentation. An interactive demo (tutorial) would take a great deal more prep.<br>
<br>
An early format for the Wing Ding studying GoF was in the <br>
<br>
- group sync<br>
- split up for first design pattern<br>
- group sync for recap<br>
- split up for second design pattern<br>
- group sync for recap<br>
<br>
Worked very well.<br>
<br>
—<br>
<br>
&gt; The other tech group I'm a regular at is the Seattle Scalability Meetup, and I'm always amazed at how few people I recognize there. … It may also be that the recent addition of the Scala meetup has peeled away some numbers.<br>
<br>
Bifurcation is a natural law.<br>
<br>
&gt; So many of these groups get listed on <a href="http://meetup.com">meetup.com</a>. <br>
<br>
Good idea.<br>
<br>
&gt; Nimret, thanks as always for your dedication and diligence.<br>
<br>
Word.<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers, Jason<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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[Kirk Mattson [e-mail] [seajug]]

I’m probably the type of person you’re after, as I used to attend occasionally, but haven’t attended recently. For me, it’s a mix of topics, poor timing around vacations, and my home life getting busier.

I am now doing Android development, and haven’t seen many recent topics directly related to mobile. Mobile developers like their Java lean and mean, and are rightfully skeptical of third party libraries. And (in general), we’re only marginally interested in what happens on the server-side, and often not enough to deep-dive into a certain area. If the topic has a mobile or Android angle, then make sure to include that in the pitch.

[ I was on the server side for many years, and understand its importance for the Java community, so I’m not suggesting you no longer include server-side topics; I’m simply trying to answer your question about why I haven’t been attending. ]

Kirk

PS - I LOVE the downtown location, so it’s not that :)


On Jun 3, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Nimret Sandhu nimret-rf+Eeaps6PzQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org<mailto:***@nimret.com> [seajug] <seajug-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:seajug-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:



Hey fellow SeaJUG folks,

We've had mixed attendance at some of the talks lately. Is it the topics? venue? some other reason?

thanks,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org<http://www.nimret.org/>

[[e-mail] [seajug]]

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<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000; font-size:10pt;"><div><br></div><div>Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)</div><div><br></div><div>The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.</div><div><br></div>
<blockquote id="replyBlockquote" webmail="1" style="border-left: 2px solid blue; margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px; font-size:10pt; color:black; font-family:verdana;">
<div id="wmQuoteWrapper">
-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance<br>
From: "<a href="mailto:siegfried-***@public.gmane.org">siegfried-***@public.gmane.org</a> [seajug]" &lt;<a href="mailto:seajug-***@public.gmane.org">seajug-***@public.gmane.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am<br>
To: <a href="mailto:seajug-***@public.gmane.org">seajug-***@public.gmane.org</a><br>
<br>
<span style="display:none">&nbsp;</span> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <div id="ygrp-text"> <div><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#000000;font-size:10pt;"></span></div><div>OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last meeting...</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from my 60 hour work week. I apologize...</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div style="color: #fff; height: 0;"></div> <style type="text/css">
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[Richard Rodseth [e-mail] [seajug]]

I was at the Hazelcast meeting, but my lack of attendance lately is mostly
due to interest in Scala and other competing groups like Scalability.
Recording the meetings might make people less likely to attend.
I agree that Nimret deserves kudos. I don't think it's easy to find
presenters, and it's inevitable the quality will vary.
Creating a welcoming environment can attract presenters from within the
group.
Even beginner topics could be addressed from time to time.
Tough questions can wait until the end.
I think you would attract new blood if you used MeetUp. People notice that
other attendees are members of other interesting-sounding groups.
Joint meetings with other groups could also help.
Downtown location is good for me and I would imagine for a lot of new
residents. Have you seen South Lake Union lately?

Post by siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent
to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that
by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism
would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit
that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)
The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful
for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am
OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last
meeting...
Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from
my 60 hour work week. I apologize...

[Teri Radichel [e-mail] [seajug]]

Yes meet up would help...

I must apologize as I run the Seattle AWS Architects & Engineers and
scheduled some overlapping events because I forgot Seajug was on the same
night. I always look at meet up for conflicts and would be easier if Seajug
was on meet up.

I also think would help people find the group.

If anyone wants to do a joint meet up AWS A & E are sponsored and held at
Surf Incubator (sponsor requests we maintain that location).

Teri Radichel

On Jun 4, 2014, at 10:47 AM, "Richard Rodseth rrodseth-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]" <
seajug-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



I was at the Hazelcast meeting, but my lack of attendance lately is mostly
due to interest in Scala and other competing groups like Scalability.
Recording the meetings might make people less likely to attend.
I agree that Nimret deserves kudos. I don't think it's easy to find
presenters, and it's inevitable the quality will vary.
Creating a welcoming environment can attract presenters from within the
group.
Even beginner topics could be addressed from time to time.
Tough questions can wait until the end.
I think you would attract new blood if you used MeetUp. People notice that
other attendees are members of other interesting-sounding groups.
Joint meetings with other groups could also help.
Downtown location is good for me and I would imagine for a lot of new
residents. Have you seen South Lake Union lately?

Post by siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent
to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that
by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism
would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit
that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)
The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful
for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am
OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last
meeting...
Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from
my 60 hour work week. I apologize...

[Scott Shipp [e-mail] [seajug]]

Yes get on Meetup, please!

To: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
From: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 20:28:13 -0700
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance



























Yes meet up would help...
I must apologize as I run the Seattle AWS Architects & Engineers and scheduled some overlapping events because I forgot Seajug was on the same night. I always look at meet up for conflicts and would be easier if Seajug was on meet up.

I also think would help people find the group.
If anyone wants to do a joint meet up AWS A & E are sponsored and held at Surf Incubator (sponsor requests we maintain that location).

Teri Radichel
On Jun 4, 2014, at 10:47 AM, "Richard Rodseth rrodseth-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]" <seajug-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:




























I was at the Hazelcast meeting, but my lack of attendance lately is mostly due to interest in Scala and other competing groups like Scalability.Recording the meetings might make people less likely to attend.


I agree that Nimret deserves kudos. I don't think it's easy to find presenters, and it's inevitable the quality will vary.Creating a welcoming environment can attract presenters from within the group.

Even beginner topics could be addressed from time to time.
Tough questions can wait until the end.
I think you would attract new blood if you used MeetUp. People notice that other attendees are members of other interesting-sounding groups.


Joint meetings with other groups could also help.Downtown location is good for me and I would imagine for a lot of new residents. Have you seen South Lake Union lately?




On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 10:10 AM, siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





























Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)


The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.



-------- Original Message --------

Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance

From: "siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]" <seajug-***@public.gmane.org>

Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am

To: seajug-***@public.gmane.org



OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last meeting...


Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from my 60 hour work week. I apologize...

[Yehuda Romano [e-mail] [seajug]]

For those who call to use meetup

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Scott Shipp scottashipp-1ViLX0X+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Yes get on Meetup, please!
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 20:28:13 -0700
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance
Yes meet up would help...
I must apologize as I run the Seattle AWS Architects & Engineers and scheduled some overlapping events because I forgot Seajug was on the same night. I always look at meet up for conflicts and would be easier if Seajug was on meet up.
I also think would help people find the group.
If anyone wants to do a joint meet up AWS A & E are sponsored and held at Surf Incubator (sponsor requests we maintain that location).
Teri Radichel
I was at the Hazelcast meeting, but my lack of attendance lately is mostly due to interest in Scala and other competing groups like Scalability.
Recording the meetings might make people less likely to attend.
I agree that Nimret deserves kudos. I don't think it's easy to find presenters, and it's inevitable the quality will vary.
Creating a welcoming environment can attract presenters from within the group.
Even beginner topics could be addressed from time to time.
Tough questions can wait until the end.
I think you would attract new blood if you used MeetUp. People notice that other attendees are members of other interesting-sounding groups.
Joint meetings with other groups could also help.
Downtown location is good for me and I would imagine for a lot of new residents. Have you seen South Lake Union lately?
Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)
The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am
OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last meeting...
Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from my 60 hour work week. I apologize...

[Yehuda Romano [e-mail] [seajug]]

Sorry for the broken message.

Meetup costs money - as members we need to cover the cost.

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Yehuda Romano yehuda_romano-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
For those who call to use meetup
Sent from my iPhone

Post by Scott Shipp scottashipp-1ViLX0X+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Yes get on Meetup, please!
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 20:28:13 -0700
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance
Yes meet up would help...
I must apologize as I run the Seattle AWS Architects & Engineers and scheduled some overlapping events because I forgot Seajug was on the same night. I always look at meet up for conflicts and would be easier if Seajug was on meet up.
I also think would help people find the group.
If anyone wants to do a joint meet up AWS A & E are sponsored and held at Surf Incubator (sponsor requests we maintain that location).
Teri Radichel
I was at the Hazelcast meeting, but my lack of attendance lately is mostly due to interest in Scala and other competing groups like Scalability.
Recording the meetings might make people less likely to attend.
I agree that Nimret deserves kudos. I don't think it's easy to find presenters, and it's inevitable the quality will vary.
Creating a welcoming environment can attract presenters from within the group.
Even beginner topics could be addressed from time to time.
Tough questions can wait until the end.
I think you would attract new blood if you used MeetUp. People notice that other attendees are members of other interesting-sounding groups.
Joint meetings with other groups could also help.
Downtown location is good for me and I would imagine for a lot of new residents. Have you seen South Lake Union lately?
Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)
The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am
OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last meeting...
Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from my 60 hour work week. I apologize...

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

hmm meetup costs more than vimeo for hosting our videos. Interesting.
I can find sponsors to pay for this sort of stuff.

cheers,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

Post by Yehuda Romano yehuda_romano-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Sorry for the broken message.
Meetup costs money - as members we need to cover the cost.
Sent from my iPhone

[Teri Radichel [e-mail] [seajug]]

I can set up the group and add Nimret as admin.

Teri Radichel

On Jun 5, 2014, at 9:01 AM, "Yehuda Romano yehuda_romano-***@public.gmane.org
[seajug]" <seajug-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



Sorry for the broken message.

Meetup costs money - as members we need to cover the cost.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Yehuda Romano yehuda_romano-***@public.gmane.org
[seajug]" <seajug-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



For those who call to use meetup

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2014, at 8:57 AM, "Scott Shipp scottashipp-1ViLX0X+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]" <
seajug-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



Yes get on Meetup, please!

------------------------------
To: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
From: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 20:28:13 -0700
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance



Yes meet up would help...

I must apologize as I run the Seattle AWS Architects & Engineers and
scheduled some overlapping events because I forgot Seajug was on the same
night. I always look at meet up for conflicts and would be easier if Seajug
was on meet up.

I also think would help people find the group.

If anyone wants to do a joint meet up AWS A & E are sponsored and held at
Surf Incubator (sponsor requests we maintain that location).

Teri Radichel

On Jun 4, 2014, at 10:47 AM, "Richard Rodseth rrodseth-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]" <
seajug-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



I was at the Hazelcast meeting, but my lack of attendance lately is mostly
due to interest in Scala and other competing groups like Scalability.
Recording the meetings might make people less likely to attend.
I agree that Nimret deserves kudos. I don't think it's easy to find
presenters, and it's inevitable the quality will vary.
Creating a welcoming environment can attract presenters from within the
group.
Even beginner topics could be addressed from time to time.
Tough questions can wait until the end.
I think you would attract new blood if you used MeetUp. People notice that
other attendees are members of other interesting-sounding groups.
Joint meetings with other groups could also help.
Downtown location is good for me and I would imagine for a lot of new
residents. Have you seen South Lake Union lately?



On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 10:10 AM, siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug] <
seajug-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:




Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent to
pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that by
being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism
would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit
that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)

The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful
for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance
From: "siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]" <seajug-***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am
To: seajug-***@public.gmane.org


OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last
meeting...

Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from
my 60 hour work week. I apologize...

[Jason Osgood [e-mail] [seajug]]

Hi Teri Radichel.

Post by Scott Shipp scottashipp-1ViLX0X+***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
I must apologize as I run the Seattle AWS Architects & Engineers and scheduled some overlapping events because I forgot Seajug was on the same night.

Cool (that you’re organizing).

I was wondering about potential for joint events. Like AWS A&E + SeaJUG, Android + SeaJUG, code.org + SeaJUG.


Cheers, Jason

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
I was wondering about potential for joint events. Like AWS A&E + SeaJUG,
Android + SeaJUG, code.org + SeaJUG.

I'm for it as long as the content is relevant to the community (ie java/jvm
related).

cheers,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

[dev danke [e-mail] [seajug]]

I wonder if it's time to reinvent the idea of a user group. A user group
has a couple main aspects: the mailing list and the meetings.

In the past the SeaJUG mailing list was one of the best (sometimes only)
places to get help on coding, design, and technology problems/questions.
But now, I think Stackoverflow answers questions faster and better. Also
Stackoverflow does a better job of staying on topic. The declining
usefulness of the mailing list probably contributes to lower meeting
attendance.

As for the meetings, the presenter - audience approach depends on having
fairly good speakers and interesting topics. But sometimes Java goes for
quite a while without interesting stuff happening. Java 8 is about the
most interesting thing in five years. Plus, developers are not usually
known for being dynamic, engaging speakers;-)

I wonder if a new format could be more attractive. What if Java devs got
together to fix problems in commonly used open-source software. For
example, a lot of us use Maven. The maintainers have not fixed bugs or
delivered on their product roadmap promises for years. Maybe user groups
like SeaJUG could help in cases like this.

I realized this might make SeaJUG meetings feel like work. But if
approached with an "Agile done right" angle (clearly defined tasks, pair
programming, TDD/BDD), maybe it could be fun, sustainable, and satisfying.

-Dan

Post by siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent
to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that
by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism
would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit
that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)
The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful
for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [seajug] low attendance
Date: Wed, June 04, 2014 9:46 am
OK! I confess... I was having a hard time staying awake during the last
meeting...
Maybe I should not have been there at all since I was sleep deprived from
my 60 hour work week. I apologize...

[Jason Osgood [e-mail] [seajug]]

Hi Dan.

I wonder if a new format could be more attractive. What if Java devs got together to fix problems in commonly used open-source software. For example, a lot of us use Maven. The maintainers have not fixed bugs or delivered on their product roadmap promises for years. Maybe user groups like SeaJUG could help in cases like this.

That’s a pretty good idea. Socially responsible coding is now A Thing. (Makes me think of Toyota’s contribution to a NYC food bank: they donated the time and effort to improve operational efficiency.)

George Smith used to organize a pair programming night. Hoping he’ll comment about that.

Maybe SeaJUG is exactly what it should be. Networking, powwows, umbrella for other activities. Wing Ding has always been an offshoot, with much overlap.

Riffing on your idea, it’d be great if a group fixed some bugs, added features, whatever. And then made a presentation to SeaJUG proper.


Cheers, Jason

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

good feedback - please keep it coming. Just to give some perspective on my
original email - we've typically had around 30 folks at the meetings until
Mar of this year. The last 2 meetings have had around 15, maybe less. Which
isn't horribly bad, just trending in the wrong direction. That and the
mailing list has been quiet - thus my email.

cheers,
-
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.org

[Jason Osgood [e-mail] [seajug]]

and the mailing list has been quiet

Understood. I apologize. I just haven't been feeling argumentative lately. I'll work on being more grumpy.

------------------------------------
Posted by: Jason Osgood <zappini-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

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[George Smith [e-mail] [seajug]]

IMO, the pair programming group collapsed once we decided to code something
as a team. We could never get agreement what to actually build or even
what language to use, and so the volunteers evaporated! Before that, it
was a networking / "learning via pairing" event, and sometimes what you
wanted to work on, nobody else was interested in pairing on...

I think a Pairing Group could work again with the distinct rule of:

Pair! If you don't have something to propose working on, OR no one is
interested in pairing on what you propose, then join one of the others
ideas! (probably needs some more structure...)


George

Post by Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Hi Dan.
I wonder if a new format could be more attractive. What if Java devs got
together to fix problems in commonly used open-source software. For
example, a lot of us use Maven. The maintainers have not fixed bugs or
delivered on their product roadmap promises for years. Maybe user groups
like SeaJUG could help in cases like this.
That’s a pretty good idea. Socially responsible coding is now A Thing.
(Makes me think of Toyota’s contribution to a NYC food bank: they donated
the time and effort to improve operational efficiency.)
George Smith used to organize a pair programming night. Hoping he’ll
comment about that.
Maybe SeaJUG is exactly what it should be. Networking, powwows, umbrella
for other activities. Wing Ding has always been an offshoot, with much
overlap.
Riffing on your idea, it’d be great if a group fixed some bugs, added
features, whatever. And then made a presentation to SeaJUG proper.
Cheers, Jason

[Daniel Kirkdorffer [e-mail] [seajug]]

While a lot of the ideas people have had are interesting I still think that continuing with presentations at SeaJUG is the best approach going forward, while workshop or coding sessions would be better for some kind of splinter group.

The issue is attendance and I think fewer people will attend non-presentation meetings, especially if missing one gathering puts you behind. We see it in WingDings: initial attendance on any iteration is always higher than what we get after a few sessions, as attendance or interest dwindles.

We're also competing against other events that people can choose to go to and the number of them has grown over the years, but the fact we now have food sponsors is a big improvement over the way things were 10 years ago. After-meetings drinks are also often paid for by recruiters seeking to entice attendees.

I think we should also consider how many views the videos at Vimeo have had when assessing "attendance". I know I've missed some recent meetings and yet watched the videos.

So what SeaJUG needs to improve attendance appears to be a combination of things:
- Better broadcasting of the meeting topic (people have suggested Meetup, but we also have a LinkedIn group it could be announced on and Nimret is already a joint admin of the group)
- More popular/interesting topics? Are we contacting speakers or only relying on folks to contact us?
- More accessible venue(s). Maybe the fact we've moved venues so often in the past few years has made things more complicated too? Maybe 520 roadwork has dissuaded Eastsiders?
- Maybe the promise of more free swag?

My 2 cents.

Dan

----- Original Message -----

From: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
To: seajug-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:57:47 AM
Subject: Re: [seajug] low attendance




IMO, the pair programming group collapsed once we decided to code something as a team. We could never get agreement what to actually build or even what language to use, and so the volunteers evaporated! Before that, it was a networking / "learning via pairing" event, and sometimes what you wanted to work on, nobody else was interested in pairing on...

I think a Pairing Group could work again with the distinct rule of:




Pair! If you don't have something to propose working on, OR no one is interested in pairing on what you propose, then join one of the others ideas! (probably needs some more structure...)




George


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Jason Osgood zappini-***@public.gmane.org [seajug] < seajug-***@public.gmane.org > wrote:

<blockquote>



Hi Dan.



<blockquote>

I wonder if a new format could be more attractive. What if Java devs got together to fix problems in commonly used open-source software. For example, a lot of us use Maven. The maintainers have not fixed bugs or delivered on their product roadmap promises for years. Maybe user groups like SeaJUG could help in cases like this.

</blockquote>

That’s a pretty good idea. Socially responsible coding is now A Thing. (Makes me think of Toyota’s contribution to a NYC food bank: they donated the time and effort to improve operational efficiency.)

George Smith used to organize a pair programming night. Hoping he’ll comment about that.

Maybe SeaJUG is exactly what it should be. Networking, powwows, umbrella for other activities. Wing Ding has always been an offshoot, with much overlap.

Riffing on your idea, it’d be great if a group fixed some bugs, added features, whatever. And then made a presentation to SeaJUG proper.


Cheers, Jason






</blockquote>

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

Post by Daniel Kirkdorffer dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
While a lot of the ideas people have had are interesting I still think
that continuing with presentations at SeaJUG is the best approach going
forward, while workshop or coding sessions would be better for some kind of
splinter group.

I agree. I've also been trying to shorten the meetings and stick to 1 hour
presentations so we can try to get out sooner. It can be a little
challenging to try to comprehend technology after a long day at work.

We're also competing against other events that people can choose to go to

Post by Daniel Kirkdorffer dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
and the number of them has grown over the years, but the fact we now have
food sponsors is a big improvement over the way things were 10 years ago.
After-meetings drinks are also often paid for by recruiters seeking to
entice attendees.

if you're looking for a job you *definitely* need to come to the meetings.
Ironically we continue to have a good ratio of recruiters to programmers
and there are usually new faces on the recruiting side.

I think we should also consider how many views the videos at Vimeo have had

Post by Daniel Kirkdorffer dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
when assessing "attendance". I know I've missed some recent meetings and
yet watched the videos.

I just sent an email with a link to them and the videos are quite popular.
I get compliments from folks on other continents who enjoy watching them.

So what SeaJUG needs to improve attendance appears to be a combination of

Post by Daniel Kirkdorffer dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
- Better broadcasting of the meeting topic (people have suggested Meetup,
but we also have a LinkedIn group it could be announced on and Nimret is
already a joint admin of the group)

several people have mentioned this. I generally advertise on a couple of
local tech mailing lists and will add linkedin/meetup to that list also.

Post by Daniel Kirkdorffer dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
- More popular/interesting topics? Are we contacting speakers or only
relying on folks to contact us?

currently I am relying on folks to contact us but choosing interesting ones
or discounting technologies too close together.

Post by Daniel Kirkdorffer dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
- More accessible venue(s). Maybe the fact we've moved venues so often in
the past few years has made things more complicated too? Maybe 520
roadwork has dissuaded Eastsiders?

personally I like Disney for downtown but I am open to ideas if people have
them. I am going to do an eastside meeting in June.

Post by Daniel Kirkdorffer dankirkd-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
- Maybe the promise of more free swag?

I had glasses left over from the cassandra meeting last month though I
managed to force people to take away all the T-Shirts.

cheers,
Nimret

[Nimret Sandhu [e-mail] [seajug]]

I think this is useful feedback and I hope you forward it on to the
presenter (hopefully the email is on the slides). I am sure he would
appreciate it. Ditto for other feedback. I generally recommend presenters
get technical so the presentations aren't marketing fluff but I'll caution
against going too far in the other direction also.

thanks,
Nimret

Post by siegfried-***@public.gmane.org [seajug]
Ooops! I forgot to emphasize in that last email that it is not my intent
to pick on the Cassandra presentation or the presenter. I was hoping that
by being detailed (instead of vague), my attempts at constructive criticism
would be more helpful to lots of presenters. (I'm also embarrassed to admit
that I had trouble staying awake and I am trying to find excuses...)
The Cassandra presentation had a lot of great information and I'm grateful
for it and I appreciate the time and effort it took.